WOW GOOD JOB SQUARE

The Press Turn system which has the actually acknowledged game point of "hit weakness, get a turn" and has formally existed since Nocturne which came out in 2003 (and has been used in all other SMT-related games since then) and is executed differently than FF6's alleged "invisible system."

Actually it was more of an example that they used it for some parts, in a way they were most likely not even thinking about SMT in any way whatsoever when scripted. But yes, I have no formal proof that they didn't think of anything like that, just information that suggests it isn't likely, not a 100% every battle sort of deal, obviously some enemies may horribly counter attack if hit their weak point.

HOWEVER, first off, the very first original game, Megami Tensei, came out in 1987 (so this means FF and SMT has been around an equal amount of years). I sadly cannot say I have played the game personally as it would be hard to come by in this time and age, and doubtlessly aged horribly. I have no idea about the games between Megami Tensei and Devil Summoner, but I DO know that Devil Summoner (1995) certainly had the "invisible" one more system in that you "stole" the turn from the opposing side (the game execution is that it is indicated that you stun the enemy from attacking, thus they lose a turn), so even this is different from FF6's.
*In all seriousness, how could a mechanic like that be ignored? Surely someone besides you in the case of this..."argument" would have noticed.

*shrug* None of us are truly informed very well on SMT or FF in general really, except me with FF6.

The conclusion is that neither side can prove this since in the EARLY DAYS (I cannot prove my claims as many of the early SMT games never made it to the US, and you have stated yourself that your pics and video cannot prove the existence of the hidden ATB bar, only the code which you have managed to pull up in a mod from an emulator, forgive my skepticism on such a matter, add to the fact that the code is all "perfect" English).

What, you expected the program to be a script READER? Although I don't mind your skepticism, the pics really do say nothing, hell they could be shopped for all you know. (I mean come on, I DID have to open Paint to make that red box did I not?). Since I don't have a video of all my past actions with this, the better way would be for you to just get the editor and clean rom yourself and check. Or you could just check youtube like I did to see the boss in action.

However, what is true is that these battle system mechanics were NOT glorified in either, therefore they went largely unnoticed. As much as you wish to say "but the coding!" Kudo, if it is not stated in the MANUAL of the official game itself, nor do they acknowledge the usage/existence of this mechanic in the re-release or anywhere ingame aside from a code from a single monster which can only be acquired by ripping the data itself, thus it begs the validity of its existence. Even if the benefit of the doubt is given, one must ask why would such a potentially important and intentional mechanic be left out of the basic gameplay instructions?
*Actually are there any other enemies which do this? And is that blob a boss, wtf?

Yes there are other enemies, but not many (as in, most will say different stuff/not say stuff, "flinch" in different ways), at all keep in mind this is only FF6 I'm talking about, there may be, and may be NOT other similar instances in the other games. And yes that blob is a boss, as a matter a fact, you fight him THREE FOUR TIMES.

So basically what we're concretely and objectively left with are the instances where this mechanic is bragged about and made a point of notice. SMT has it with it's 3rd game, aka Nocturne, which came out in 2003 and FF has the instance of XIII with the chain attack. The mechanic by itself wouldn't cause for most to bat an eye, however it is the combination of other factors that makes one question the developers given recent gaming context.
>Hit with magic weakness for bonus turn/crippling the enemy so they lose a turn

In this case, making the point noticed, SMT has hit it first, so really it's which ever company CALLED IT FIRST rather than someone copying the other.

Persona 3 was RELEASED in 2006 while news of the upcoming FFXIII just began, it's only game info was a glimpse of a more streamlined battle system that looked more like an action RPG than the ATB system, the rest of the trailer was a cutscene.

This would only be good speculation (ack, that's most likely the wrong word) for the theory FFXIII's ideas were copied off SMT, but since this is just an explanation, whatever. On a complete side note, I thought the trailer sucked.

Now rolls around the end of 2009.

All of a sudden the story is being poured out and things called "Eidolons" which means 1. a phantom; apparition. 2. an ideal, have been added in. I am aware the term "Eidolons" has existed prior in FF, however their handling is vastly different this time, people have been infected with a plot-virus which causes them to produce a magical catalyst that enables them to summon "Eidolons" unique to them. Every Eidolon must be fought/controlled/suppressed or else they kill their "master." While these same literal fights are a main point in Persona 4 (2008), they were also present in Persona 2 (1999, 2000) and Persona 3 (2006).
>Spiritual manifestations of the psyche, used for combat and a major enough to be plot points
>Production of a catalyst used to summon unique spirits distributed on a story event basis
>Everyone gets one and only one unique to themselves
**This concept and variations of it have been used in anime/manga as well, however refer to below points to see where skepticism arises. Also mind that we are using the medium of games.

It also seems these Eidolons are mostly specific summons, even based off the mythology creatures FF uses. More so they seem to be special like summons in the same way FF has always used summons. Unlike Personas which are used for basically...ANY AND ALL MAGIK. Although the general idea seems incredibly familiar, both are just fancy ways of saying that they have internal power that can do good or bad, or ruin themselves if not utilized properly. I've seen COMIC BOOK HEROS fit this description but if you want to stay skeptical about it, I'm not stopping you.

For (as far as I know) the first time in the FF series, when the party leader dies, it is game over. Anyone can be party leader anytime save for certain game events, so there is no real concrete reason for this mechanic when you have a full party. However this game trait is present in nearly every SMT game barring P1 and P2.
>Party Leader dies = Game Over
*Honestly, aside from specific story-events I find this game mechanic hammishly thrown in for no real reason.

HERE is a more precise reason, and much better back-up for the FF ripping off of SMT theory than anything I've heard from you or your brother. Then again, with AI that don't act on your orders directly, it only makes sense to throw this in, really, think about it. You die, your members would act like retards and kill themselves anyway, I bet they don't even know how to USE a phoenix down.

FFXII also came out in 2006 with its (ridiculous) gambit controls. (I call it ridiculous because you had to find the gambits, most of which were painfully silly ones, such as Gambit: DODGE TRAPS!, Gambit: REVIVE DEAD, Use FIRE on enemies WEAK TO FIRE) However, much like P3 there is no "direct command" aside from your party leader, rather all your party members will be stuck with presets: Heal, Defend, Attack (Phys), Attack (Mag). However this mechanic isn't unique to only SMT as in the age of AI parties in action RPGs, this is a fairly common trait. But for the sake of setting context, it shall be listed, especially in lieu of the existence of the Gambit system which was created and somehow PRAISED in FFXII only to be thrown out completely in the next game. In addition, the AI will be retarded unless you scan the enemy, which no longer takes up a turn as it used to, nor is automatic should you have equipped a certain weapon/skill, you just Scan the enemy.
>AI commands: Healer, Defender, Attack (Phys), Attack (Mag)
>Scan the Enemy to make your AI party attack properly, aka nonretardedly.

There are tards that'll praise anything in a game, I'm pretty sure there are people that loved how they didn't need to think about what their partners were doing in P3 regardless that they were off being retarded or giving your enemy an extra turn.

Now onto to things that would REALLY make some question the developers, mainly story-based points.
> Mysterious plot-virus allows people to acquire Eidolons. Sigma, watch AC again.
> Mysterious plot-virus leaves visible mark on the person's body. AGAIN, see Sigma, no, better, see Cancer (yes the type you hear about IRL)
> Mysterious plot-virus eventually turns whoever it affects into a CRYSTAL (oh noes?!), however people can GET BETTER (ohlol). Fucking Crystals, see Final Fantasy Tactics (no, NOT Sigma this time).
>>Digital Devil Saga (2003-4), people marked with Atma acquire the power to turn into demons. In order to maintain sanity, those who are marked must devour other people, if they do not they are driven to madness and then violent death. Well the eating people is kinda unique compared to all the other systems.
>>DDS, Atma, aka a virus data-wise and literally, indicate one is infected with the "Asura Virus" with a strange, tattoo-like marks on the person's body. Although you DID note it, I believe it's pretty simple to see a diesease-virus, and a data-disease-virus, aren't quite the same.
>>DDS, Atma curses those who have them with the beforementioned cannibalism and in the case of actual AIs, to be enslaved to human flaws and emotions. Which they were kind of already flawed with...? Not quite clear here.
>>DDS, those who cannot control themselves will experience crippling pain before auto-locking into their demon forms and going berserk. Translation: Weird shit happens if you don't follow the rules
>> Persona 1 and 2, those "marked" by Philemon will obtain a Persona.
>>Persona, if you fail to master your Persona, you become a mindless Shadow or one of the "Shadow People." If you cannot control your Persona, it will kill you or those around you, if you artificially suppress your Persona, your life is cut significantly shorter. (Pretty much the rules of the Persona Universe.)

Having played a portion of Persona 2:Innocent Sin, I can also say Shadow People were those whose ideals were stolen from them via the Joker, or some other means. In a way, those who lost their soul (I'm assuming the same would result if one of characters lost their persona). The Philemon part I'll take your word for since he does kind of go "OH BTW YOU HAVE THE UNIVERSE'S FATE IN UR HANDS, DON'T SCREW WITH IT OR I HIT THE BIG RESET BUTTON. AND YOU DON'T WANT THE BIG RESET BUTTON. Just make sure Maya doesn't die kthnxbai." As an example, there was a weird ass cult group that somehow had soul-sucking-skulls and forced many to become Shadow People (namely everyone inside a specific school dance...although it was the masks they wore that did the soul sucking), who were otherwise completely forgotten from the world. It was more their definition of being gone for good.

And now a random, but nonetheless hilarious coincidence:
> FFXIII plot is about saving a girl named Serah.
> Serah is the lover of a man named Snow with an Ice-based Eidolon, (Snow) is the leader of a resistance group.
>>DDS plot is about saving a girl named Sera.
>>DDS plot, Sera and Serph are involved with each other (though the how and why is pretty creepy), Serph is the leader of a military group who also happens to be ice-affiliated

Since for some reason I nearly missed seeing this, here is the next best piece of info that backs up the FF copying SMT theory that I've heard. Sera + Serph = Serah? Knowing Final Fantasy, I know this isn't just a poor translation bit for the name Sarah. Again however, I do know someone who is honestly named "Snow".

Anyway, take into account all of the >'s points as well as comparing what the FFs thus far have been about: mystical artifacts that make/break the world and villains that are either crazy or have retarded ideas of why the world simply must cease. Also bear in mind that all of these points drawn for comparison are based off of what FFXIII is showcasing as "good things" meant to define FFXIII. **There are also some other plot/story points that are dangerously close between DDS and FFXIII, however that is spoiler territory, and I still need to confirm and laugh at them for myself.

Now if you want my PERSONAL and REAL reasons as to why FFXIII looks like it would be a GRAND pile of fail (remember, to me only):

Rough translation: "Here's my opinion on why it (will suck/sucks)." Really that's all you needed to say. On the other hand, I'll comment through for the lulz since I'm bored.

-The female characters still blow, despite having a relatively "equal" guy to girl ratio, Lightning has about as much personality as cardboard, Fang is very similar to Lightning and Vanille is empty-headed and doomed to forever be a simpering healer by virtue that she is female and SE HAETS GURLZ.
Well, on the other hand, they could be making Tifas and Aerith's left and right and that'd be just as bad, but yes, the characters do get worse and worse. Really, the guy cast isn't getting better either, at least they have a Cid constant. Speaking of which, why the heck wasn't he mentioned earlier with the complaining of names?
-Magic is still sucks despite using the chain system, rather than being as crippling as one might think, it is just a different way of wasting your magic.
Osmose, Drain, and Ultima say hello. Or did they nerf even THOSE simple spells? They might have done that many games ago, I'll have to check
-Reprise of the FFXII battle system AND the FFX connect-the-dotslol leveling system, which was mind-bogglingly fun (read that sarcasm: the game played itself and whoever likes GRINDIN is MAD).
See praising stupid AI, people do stupid shit, FFX praise is something I won't be able to figure out myself. It sucked far more than FFVII and received MORE praise. I think I found a site that had FFX down as the best game evar for the past few years, I'd like to know what they were smoking since I think I could use some.
-The story seems like it's having a seizure because it can't figure out what it's trying to be. This isn't BAD in theory, but they aren't doing a good job in execution nor are they bringing any interesting ideas to the table or at least disguising/interpreting them more creatively.
Story, oh GOD Story, let's take a good look at the past Final Fantasy's and what tends to be remembered from each. (Warning, contains immense exaggeration)
FF1- GO RANDOM PLACES, FIGHT CHAOS, TIME PARADOX. GOGOGO
FF2- It came with FF1 in the many remakes, I think that's all anyone remembers of it.
FF3- No comment due to not having played it at all.
FF4- USE THE CRYSTAL CECIL! USE THE CRYSTAL! You killed Zemus! Zeromus: No, I AM Zemus.
FF5- Some dude named Exdeath, an evil tree, and TEH VOID. Oh and Neo-Exdeath coming out of nowhere.
FF6- So they had a 200+ mile elevation fall from an airship and what's there explanation for their survival? A one-year time skip, excellent job Square, it truly is an improvement from all the bull-sh*t in the past. BTW Kefka is insane and took over the world in a year kthnxbai.
FF7- Pretty Boy, Momma's Boy, Aerith Dies, Tifa is supposedly hawt, who the fuck is Barret's kid's mother, what is this I don't even Cait Sith, Yuffie sucks (and steals), the best character wears a fucking CAPE, [sarcasm]and that's why it's the best game ever[/sarcasm]. (I left out Red XIII on purpose, he is one forgotten fucker).
FF8- Leon SQUALL is supposedly cewl, and Ultimacia doing weird shit, whatever.
FF9- Haven't played it, same as FF3, can't say much. On the other hand, Ozma is a true blob compared to Ultros...
FF10- IT HAS TIME-CONSUMING BORING SHIT SO IT MUST BE AWESOME. Tidus: "LET'S GO DAD!", INSERT MOAR HOMOSEXUAL QUOTES HERE. (In all seriousness, I'd play Halo before playing this, and I don't like playing FPSes)
FF11- Let's waste our lives killing something with 50 million HP! Oh come on, it'll only take 3 weeks, nothing compared to the stuff in World of--(DAMN, I ALMOST MENTIONED IT, THE SATAN OF GAMES).
FF12- Haven't played it, but at this point Square decided to make a shitload of side games with the same characters but having no relation to the original game plot in any way whatsoever, we'll just leave it with this, and Famfirt. You know you love Famfrit
FF13- See thread.
-People turning into Crystals once they fulfill an "unsaid goal" screams of laziness on the writer's behalf. It is one thing to have fantastic elements, it's another to just be lazy when it comes to plot and its drama.
This would be a short sum up for why I don't like movies.
>I will play FFXIII as if it were a Transformers game, look at the sparkly mech-monsters, ignore the humans, unless of course the battle system becomes more tedious than it the plot is "so bad it's hilarious."
Hmm...there are plenty of games out there that suck and will get much better lulz, AVGN manages to pull it off, it's just a matter of how much shit you're willing to take: Plumbers Don't Wear Ties
Who knows? Maybe they can actually pull off this amalgamation of random ideas? ...lol.

I made a * note about other mediums using it, remember I merely listed it for shaping context. However, I will mention to note the "summon with a catalyst animation" as it is hilarious.

Someone is forgetting that even the two sprites of a character CHANTING count as "summon with a catalyst animation". What perhaps you REALLY mean is "summoning in short but still "cool and flashy" manner (not chanting)" such as...I don't know, shooting themselves in the head,

In regards to the FFXIII "leader dies = game over" what throws your theory out the window is that in FFXII (lol gambits w/ AI) when your chosen leader died, you simply *swapped leader* until your ENTIRE party was dead (even your benched people). So there is really no logic reason outside of the special condition game events as to why universal "leader = dead" is suddenly implemented in FFXIII.

Then again, what you have just said perfectly described how the Koopa Bros. in PAPER MARIO fought. So you gotta question yourself on how big these coincidences truly are. (Do we instantly assume FFXII is ripping off of Paper Mario? I'd think not, remember Square worked with Super Mario RPG, not Paper Mario. I'm only using this as an example).

Sigma killed/was supposed to kill people in AC (FFXIII virus does not, you get "crystallized" or "zombified" which looks more like you have a retarded fusion with your Eidolon, but you can fix it, probably through the POWAR OF LOVE or some such nonsense.)
Sigma did not leave a *universal oval shaped mark* on one's body, which is what the plot virus in FFXIII does.

Sigma was also much more temporary, and easier to heal. That or Lifestream heals EVERYTHING. For a movie plot they had to make it a problem, but not something as permanent as what they have in FFXIII. For FFXIII's case it just makes more sense to have it give some sort of power really, even a screwed up manga pulled it later on. Don't believe me? I'll give you hint saying the character is exceptionally emo, stupid, uses fire, has weird ass eyes that see shit, and can be found murmuring weird shit nobody understands. If you didn't pick it up from that, it's this guy: As for "crystallized" and "zombified". I'm a little surprised, normally those are just basic stat problems like getting poisoned (Stone and Zombie were status problems in the past, or at least FF6, and they were a total bitch seeing how both of them count the player as dead. Zombie was the same thing as Beserk, except they never make a mistake to help you, they'll even HEAL the enemy, Stone is self-explanitory, you can't move, you count as dead, and Phoenix Downs as well as Life 2 do shit).

As for the names, Cid is akin to chocobo, so no beef there. Snow is also a name, but I have yet to have met a male named that. They shoulda called him Hail or something, as "Hale" is an actually credible name and they phonetically sound the same. Bah.

It's agreed, a Cid is fine too. Wonder where he'll be in FFXIII.

Given that it is the FFX sphere system bullshit, by the time you get the useful-tier spells you'll have already beaten the game. Actually Drain really sucked in FFX and FFXII: Ultima sucked for its cost (and you can't even get the damn thing until you get those STUPID locks) and how long the animation was in FFX. I never found the asshole of a skill vender who sold Ultima in FFXII, so I can't honestly tell you. I believe they even nerfed HEAL in FFXIII as one must cast it 3 times to have notable effect, so wtf there. Or maybe they finally rebalanced the stats or something so that different party members have FUNCTIONS, no idea.

Oh god they DID nerf them, and what happened to Osmose? (MP Drain spell). *sigh* at least in the past they made pretty much anything pretty openly available before the end, or at least from my FFVI experience. I beat Kefka because I had taught EVERYONE (spare Shadow who died/I killed accidentally&permanently, and Umaro) Ultima and Osmose. If they didn't have Drain, they had Cure 3. Normally it should only take two Cure 3's to fully heal everyone's HP (assuming you've been hit by freaking Fallen One). Drain was normally an auto-full heal for any one character anyway, while doing damage. Osmose and Drain actually destroyed the need for basic ITEMS they were practically broken. I guess a bit of nerfing was called for but this doesn't seem right.

The DDS Virus is special, it exists in the Digital server and the plane of Reality of their universe. Why it is able to so is because of what made up the original Virus. However I doubt you care about those properties.

It's true, I don't care. The point was that there is a difference, and there seems to nothing against that, carry on.

It's worse/better this time, Transformers, Personae/Stands, STORM SHIP TROOPERS, GUNSWORDS, BIKES MADE OF WOMEN, cults that make less sense than the usual brand, TALKING CRYSTALS, CARBUNCLE (you know that small green...pikachu looking thing) IS A DUKE LOLWHUT. And a man who has a chocobo living in his afro, he is a hero just for that.

I take it you TL:DW'd Plumbers Don't Wear Ties. Or have already seen it before, it is pretty old. I'm going with "worse" on this one. So we both agree the game will be shit.

Anyway, I mention the "summoning animation" to be hilarious because, go look up one of them or something, you'll get what I mean. No idea where the rest of your statement comes from though, I'm not saying SE "coincidented" again or something, I'm merely stating that they look silly again.

K, I'll check if I'm bored sometime...great, Bahamut is a freaking Transformer. I can already tell you will enjoy the lulz from this game, even if it sucks.

Sounds like you misunderstood my explanation, FFXIII is where SUDDENLY, given it's proud tradition of doing things, when your chosen leader dies in REGULAR SCHMUCK BATTLES, the game is over. Remember, you can change your "party leader" on the fly outside of battle, so there is no "well the plot/logic." Basically, whoever YOU put in the first slot or otherwise the character you are moving with on the world map, is suddenly tasked with being the one who must not die in your regular random battles.

CHANGING THE LEADER, this is something else. Ok, NOW the "leader die = game over" makes less sense (and by that, I get your point, just now FFXIII makes less sense, but it's FF, not much sense left in these games in anyway). Yeah, this is just a crack at random then, and I've already explained why for the worse. Moving on.

Special Condition battles have a hall pass for obvious reasons, I'm talking about the NORMAL battles where you're free to do whatever the hell you want. And there are no game perks to making someone Party Leader and anyone can be party leader. I toss out the "accusation" (take that on the loosest definition) on the basis that FFXII did not use this despite having a very similar system. Streamlining the mess of AI control has it's logic, but "punishing/challenging" the player in fodder battles just because Slot 1 character died is a leap in the direction of random. It's also a call for practicality.

And some better balancing help, they seem to be taking the experimental method rather slowly.

S/N: Games like Paper Mario have a good reason as to why when Mario dies, it's Game Over, Party Members have no HP, they simply lose turns when damaged, so that is the balancing factor in that.

True true, later on Thousand Year Door throws that out and your party members DO have HP. As a matter a fact, there's a boss battle where you fight them. (They aren't possessed, just storyline stupid). It is still "Mario dies = game over" system though, but when every attack in the game is counter-attackable to take no damage, there's really no excuse anyway to not have a system like this, you get a game over you freaking EARNED it

You have also forgotten that I'm merely clarifying things. As well as how any one of these points taken separately mean nothing, it's the collective coincidences.
*Random but, I Just remembered that in DDS it wasn't game over until all the on-field team was dead, however given it was SMT, if and when someone died, usually the rest of the team wasn't far behind.

Well, unlike Nocturne when your team consisted purely of other demons (save temporary portions, like isn't there a time Dante joins you?). I guess it would make more sense, then again SMT has other games like Persona where it's a main character on your team, or nobody else. For FF it seems to be (this means it's only a mere speculation) silly whim changes, for the better or worse would be more of an opinionated matter (I say worse, just cause).

Lifestream is MADE OF PEOPLE.
True, but it's been said also to release shit from time to time or get sucked from, absorbed, etc.

FFXIII virus is a PLOT virus, so it doesn't actually hinder your battles nor at least give them a case of cutscene sniffles, it just gives the characters a reason to bitch/emo, which comes off as less forgivable for some reason. Now, about that example you tried to point out, Do you have a link in there, or maybe you forgot to include something? Anyway, what makes it lose grounds as "virus" is that at worst you fight a summon, you don't even have to kill the thing, just hit/shoot it until it gives up. Another "worst" is that you become a crystal, but as stated earlier it is apparently reversible so it's not like it's cancer. But then again, this concept is being executed by the master writers of SE.

Ugh, yes I forgot the link. Anyway it was a picture of Uchiha SA-SU-KAY. No shit it's a plot virus, I was merely stating what was done before in Final Fantasy as far as becoming petrified or zombified. Great reversible, so they can make a huge deal out of having to heal part of it in the MIDDLE of the game rather than the end where it'll fuck the world.

More on Spell Nerf: I agree if that was the original cost, but in the older FF's they didn't do those either, they were about on par with the FFX incarnations. Drain drained at most 300 on a normal enemy, on a boss about 150-200, even with the designated SPELL USER it never drained more than 300 on bosses, I'd give a level but FFX was TOO KEWL4LEVLES, but I beat the final boss. Osmose was a waste of time as you'd get back about as much as you spent using the skill. There was a "trick" to make it net more, but it required some stupid ailment setup that I can't remember.

Just inferring you needed to spend a bunch to USE Osmose indicates how badly it's been nerfed. In Final Fantasy VI, Osmose had a cost of 1 MP, so there was almost no excuse NOT to use it (spare having been sucked dry by THEIR Osmose which will steal every last Magic Point you have, and yes there are enemies and one specific boss that do this) since it normally gained back ALL of your MP or at least half. And Drain only cost 20-30 or so and fully healed you (well, I doubt it'd do 9998 if you were hit by Fallen-One, but you'd still get a good amount of HP, say a couple thousand?). Really, what the hell happened there?

Cid will probably be EVIL, Cid was evil in FFXII and by the hand of your shitty party, he was killed.
Don't forget Famfrit.